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LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
Original Message
blipbleepblip.... LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (28-Oct-00)
- In the 'nord modular' thread, Hooptyheaven wrote:
"for me the point of playing out is to see what you can do without
your multi- track and without your computer"
I myself have been doing it for many years, and have done all kinds
of gigs with different equipment setups, from super minimal to a
studio-transplanted-in-a-club type setup.
What's your preference, and how important is it to you to manipulate
everything live? How important do you think it is to an audience? Do
you believe it's cheating to mix a multitrack live? How about djs?
They often don't make their own music but people think they're god
anyhow...
blipbleepblip
email:
somnaut@hotmail.com
djp.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (31-Oct-00)
- i am all about live stuff as well...
i think synth technologies have really progressed but performance
technologies have stagnated a bit.
you have the x0x style 16 step sequencers, the normal piano
keyboard, and then cakewalk or sudiovision style layout
programs(which also exist in hardware).
lately i guess there are some rm1x/mc-307 type remix units which
innovate a bit but to me it still feels a bit constrained.
so i've been writing my own stuff for live performance in
MAX(
http://www.cycling74.com) which is a midid programming language.
lots of flexibility and allows you to break a bit from the "lay it
all out ahead of time" mentality which you're often forced into by
the tools of the techno trade.
i think there's still a long way to go before techno 'bands' can
really 'jam' the way rock bands do. it will be different of course,
but the control isn't there now. when a guitarist really learns his
instrument, he can hear a riff in his head and it goes right to his
fingers. i think electronic musicians can often hear things in their
heads but in order to make it happen, they need to sit down for an
hour with cakewalk or acid and lay it out.
Link:
http://listen.to/tekfu/
djp
email:
tekfu@mail.com
necromancer213.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
(31-Oct-00)
- I play in an industrial band with a guitarist/singer, a drummer
and me on keys and vocals. The basis so far in our music is to
balance out the "real" instruments with the synths. I saw one local
industrial band play and the synth player was running around
switching from one synth to the next and he kept screwing up, so I
decided to keep it simple. No rackmounts, no extra effects, no MIDI
cables, just a nord modular, poly 800 and electribe-er1. We haven't
played a major gig yet (we formed about 3 months ago and still
writing material) but so far we're happy with the way things are
shaping up during jam sessions. It seems more like we're goofing
with our instruments than actually writing music but it's all for
fun. We wrote 2 more songs today alone from material in our jam
sessions so it's not wasting time. We can't wait to start playing in
front of people.
necromancer213
blipbleepblip.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
(31-Oct-00)
- djp,
How are you structuring your MAX tool? Is it top-secret?
blipbleepblip
email:
somnaut@hotmail.com
blipbleepblip.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
(31-Oct-00)
- ...reason I'm intersted is, I know a guy who wrote an interesting
MAX tool to randomly serve him samples and other parameters. For
performance he has general controls set up, duration, stutter,
pitch, etc. but mostly the software serves up these random slabs of
noise. As a result his show is interesting but begins to sound the
same after a while. Randomness itself begins to sound predictable
after a certain amount of time.
blipbleepblip
email:
somnaut@hotmail.com
Operator.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (31-Oct-00)
- (Answer's coming from someone who has only played live in his
apartment!):
Q: What's your preference, and how important is it to you to
manipulate everything live?
A: I think that the more control you have to manipulate
sounds/patterns live the better, as long as it doesn't get to the
point where you have to manipulate too much in order for the
performance to work, and having things not work out since you only
have two hands.
Q: How important do you think it is to an audience?
A: I think if the audience knows your material it might be more
interesting/fulfilling to them to hear something that doesn't sound
exactly like your recording. I think an audience can appreciate it
when you're physically doing something on stage and they can hear
the results. Remember, they want to "see" something. Live shows
should be visual. If they just wanted to hear the music they'd
listen to a CD.
Q: Do you believe it's cheating to mix a multitrack live?
A: Depends on what you're doing with it. If you're affecting things
in a live way then it can turn out OK. Simply muting/unmuting
pre-recorded tracks from a tape is pretty well the same as simply
muting/unmuting sequenced tracks if you're not manipulating the
sounds in any other way. Effects, filters, knobby control are things
that can turn something like that into something more "live".
Q: How about djs?
A: How about them? I can appreciate a DJ, but to me it's not the
same thing as a live performance of music and should not be judged
the same way. The two can be combined in interesting ways and it's
something that I've been thinking about recently (not that I want to
be in Limp Biscuit or anything like that!).
Operator
djp.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (31-Oct-00)
- blipbleepblip:
> how are you structuring you max tool? is it top-secret?
nothing secret really. there are several 'patches'. one for each
synth channel. the patches are all custom algorithmic sequencers
with several real-time hooks and some basic presets.
99% of the parameters are not random. the idea is that it is a new
form of instrument. i.e. one that you can learn to play. so a little
randomness is okay but a lot is not good. you should be able to
learn to manipulate a riff a certain way and then it should always
be essentially the same if you try to do it again.
for more detail about the sequencers. essentially they are
generative note loops. (i.e. mathematically created in real-time,
not pre-sampled, arranged) each sequencer has a few hooks that can
be abstracted to things like note interval(quarter, eighth,
sixteenth, eight triplet, etc.), scale type(major, minor,
pentatonic), sequence length(16 or any other number), offest octave,
number of octaves, note diversity, etc...
i guess the main idea is to get the computer to do the things it's
good at. keep time, do math, etc. but the user does the arrangement
in real-time and fine tuning through the screen or pc16000, phatboy
controllers...
if you listen to any of the sets on the tekfu site. it's a totally
live performance with nothing arranged ahead of time.
essentially you have all these individual sequencers running and by
using the 'cue' function on a mixer you can bring new riffs, beats,
etc into the mix. bring something out. bring something in, etc
etc...
Link:
http://listen.to/tekfu/
djp
email:
tekfu@mail.com
morgan.... Re: (31-Oct-00)
- i personally lose respect for a band if i see them 'play' and they
use a tape. i don't like the idea of paying $25 to see a band push
the play button on a tape and then dance around like morons. I love
seeing bands play chords on mono synths too. always laugh at that
one. i try to set things up so that i have just a bit more control
than i need or can handle. using patterns on an x0x sequencer,
filtering sub-outs and playing melodies and chords live is where
it's at for me. i like not knowing how the performance is going to
turn out until it is over. it's essential to be able to feed off of
the crowd too. you have to know how to work the vibe. i certainly
couldn't do that if everything was canned. i wish that more people
would improv. seems like improv is quickly becoming a dead art.
Link:
http://www.mp3.com/triage
morgan
email:
spameggsbaconandspam@yahoo.com
the Whiz.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (01-Nov-00)
- Sorry if the synths are off-topic (this is "Anything Analog",
isn't it?), but I've been playing out using a Casio MIDI guitar and
a Yamaha WX7, controlling a Yamaha WT11 (using the onboard effects)
running through a Lexicon MPX100 reverb unit. I play the MG510
touchstyle, so it's not just chord/strum stuff.
I may pick up a Korg 707 as a keyboard controller. Velocity, PB, MW
and AT in a small, battery-powered package.
I just don't like the idea of being trapped behind a stand.
Audiences respond more when it's obvious you're actually playing. /
and when they can TELL what you're playing...
the Whiz
email:
thewhiz@hotmail.com
R2D2.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (01-Nov-00)
- I think sometimes we over-estimate an audience. I think most
people care if EVERYTHING is recorded and you're just miming all
your stuff. That's dumb. But I think for the most part nobody gives
a crap. I certainly don't. Generally, if I see my favorite bands,
I'm there to see them in person and feel that energy you get from
being in the same place as thousands of other people who like the
same stuff you do. Whether or not the keyboardist is up there
tweaking the hell out of his patches is quite irrelevant to me IMHO.
R2D2
the Whiz.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (01-Nov-00)
- Hmmm. R2D2, most of the audiences I've played before have gone to
see a live band, and have either been a sit-down audience, or were a
dancing crowd. Maybe the dancing masses couldn't tell, but the
sit-down crowds I"VE played for were smart enough to tell what parts
each of us were playing.
Maybe it's different when, instead of playing all the individual
parts on individual instruments, you have a swirling swelter of
machine-generated arpegiations and loops, you (and your group) are
playing all those parts live. I can understand how, if the link
between the musician and the sound is lost, how the musician might
be irrelevant to the audience.
Just curious, R2D2, what groups have you seen where the audience
isn't really discriminating? What kind of music was it?
the Whiz
email:
thewhiz@hotmail.com
KetaTraxx.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (02-Nov-00)
- I have played live 5 times at a clubs & raves and about 100 times
at my own partys. The first time i played live was in Kentucky.
gearlist: TR-909,808/606/707/727 SR-16 Juno-60(x2) Jx3p PG-200,
Prophet-600 TB-303 & SH-101. no efx. 606 707 727 all had major din
problems. the Pro-600 was the only thing using midi. everything else
was trigger JUNOS JX3P (pg-200 works like this ha ha). The SH-101
was sequenced by the TB-303. The show was not all that great. Do to
the fact that the 707 or 727 would turn off when i would hit start.
And worse than that all the kids wanted to hear was break beat
loops. Hardcore drummachines -NO. After that i waited awhile and got
some more gear for live PA. This is the gear list from last 5 major
shows and the problems: TR909,606, TB-303-#1-seq-SH-101, TB-303#2
SEQ-SH-2, Polymorph-seq-SH-7(midi2cv),RM-1X : the TB-303s had din
sync probs, the SH-7 is hard to control live. The RM-1X would sync
off clock and get start and stop mixed up?. Say whats the largest
fully connecteted analog gear setup you guys have used ? 3 analog
heads brought together and connected these rare items Jupiter-6(x2,
Jupiter-4, Micromoog & Prodigy, SH-2 SH-7(x2) SH-09, MC-4 MC-202
SH-101,System-100, Juno-1/2/60/106
TR-909(X2),808,707,606(X2),727,505,jx-10,FR-777, POLYMORPH,
NORDRACK,basstation, S-2000 @ CPU sequencing some midi items.
KetaTraxx
email:
primative_intelligence@hotmail.com
blipbleepblip.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
(02-Nov-00)
- Holy Krap Kakes!
For playing live, I'd never touch a system that complex with a ten
foot 2 pole filter.
I've had great results with an ASR-10 sampler (mute and unmute at
any time, pattern based sequencer, onboard effects, all load at the
same time via scsi), midi'd drum machine for machine kicks and
cymbals/percs and 1 or 2 outboard tweakable synths sequenced either
from the sampler or my old Alesis MMT-8. MMT-8 sounds better for
arpeggio stuff. But lately I've been using the Polymorph live, so
I've been using the seq. on that.
Point is, if you have a sampler with a sequencer onboard that can
load complete setups including effects, and it has mutes, you're
really good to go. I've done whole shows with just that and an MD of
noise textures sent live through tweakable effects to create a sonic
bridge between different pieces while I load the next setup from
SCSI. Anything on top of that is butta.
The other thing I've been doing that works really well is playing
MIDI percussion live. It's incredibly visceral. People respond twice
as well to the shows where I'm banging out rhythms along w/ the
sequences. They really do.
Maybe try working, if possible, with people who would ordinarily be
classified as "live musicians," particularly if they're really into
effects pedals and don't have a big attitude like they think they're
king sh*t for having gone to music school. I work with a great
vibraphone/percussion/drums guy who loves effects, samplers, whammy
pedals, looping delays, and bizarre guitar effects. It's a really
nice balance, and adds a surprising amount of depth to the music.
There's some great guitarists out there too who really dig Fripp and
Belew and some other sonic innovators. And some open minded
violinists/cellists out there too.
blipbleepblip
email:
somnaut@hotmail.com
blipbleepblip.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music
(02-Nov-00)
- btw, djp,
thanks for the MAX rundown.
blipbleepblip
email:
somnaut@hotmail.com
the Whiz.... Re:LIVE Performance of Electronic Music (02-Nov-00)
- Hmmm, does this mean that, with a thread title of "LIVE
performance of electronic music", there's actually two different
types of live performance?
It seem like one can mean either playing the individual parts live,
or turning various loops on and off.
I don't necessarily think that being able to actually play a
instrument live makes one "king sh*t" (and I've never gone to music
school), but I think there is a difference between play and
playback, no matter how skillfully one decides when to hit the
"Play" and "Stop" buttons...
the Whiz
email:
thewhiz@hotmail.com
Richard.... Re: (03-Nov-00)
- I had a improvisational 3 piece band in Windsor, Ontario in 1997
called Coma. We played quite a few live shows, mostly at the now
departed Press Club, two sessions on University of Windsor Radio
(one interrupted by the police for excessive noise/tones), & a few
recording sessions. It was all live and improvised on the spot.
Usually I'd pick a key that we would play in and then just go from
there. My set up consisted of SH-5 (worked every time), along with
any of the following: Mini-Moog(worked twice, couldn't get the osc's
to go on three occasions but I'm pretty sure this is down to lack of
power, needs its own wall-socket, bully on the block when it comes
to power bars), Micro-moog (worked everytime), Taurus I pedals (used
once, worked fine), Pro-one (worked fine), Jupiter 4 (one show only
and massive volume fluctuations (without and VCA c/v) never had
those problems at home). Brendan played his Korg Delta or the
pro-one sometimes but he preferred to play guitar. & Chris played
lapsteel with e-bow, sorta like controllable theremin but I think it
was more his playing style.
Anyway, we never got much reception, we played Spacemen 3, Magnog,
Jessamine, at times late Talk talk, type stuff. But I guess the
space rock people wanted was more down to earth. It was fun, & then
I moved to the UK. For our last show we had three projectors that a
few friends operated. We played behind them. There was a good write
up in the local magazine SKIRT. I'm hoping to edit & master the
material when I'm back in Canada this christmas & release two CD's.
So in short/long, take the old synths out and play very loud.
Richard
email:
r_quirk@hotmail.com