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compressor 和 limit 对响度的影响(KvRAUDIO论坛)
C00kie
The main reason is that the "pro" songs are compressed & limited to smithereens, and objectively they are too loud!
There are good plugins to measure how loud your mix is. You can put Inspector on the master bus and have a look at your mix. If the RMS level is above -20dB then your mix actually is not that soft. -17dB average is pretty good, -14 or -10 is freaking loud and does not allow for much peak dynamics.
Tweaking with the compressor on the tracks that have much dynamics (drums, vocals) could give you a louder overall result. If you want to...
你可以用Inspector插入到你的 master bus 里面,用它来“监视”你的MIX；如果 RMS 是 低于 －20dB，那么你的Mix确实很不舒服。平均－17dB就已经相当不错了。
－14或者－10dB已经比较大声了，已经没什么峰值动态空间了。
通过调整compressor能提高响度，减少dynamics。If you want to...后面可能想说：但不推荐。
kritikon
If you want loud...what you need to do to match some recent music is to zoom in on your audio mixdown in the editor - if you see any white spaces in there...turn the limiter up (threshold down).
如果你需要响度，那么你就在MIX的时候通过软件放大波形，如果你看到有空白地方的话，那么你就扭动limiter吧（降低THR);
Which you seriously can do (many pros do in fact make masters that are like that). And if you seriously want to get volume as a prime objective, then use serial compressors/limiters. If you use just one compressor heavily, followed by one limiter heavily - you'll probably get a bit of mush. But use two or even three compressors one after the other at lesser settings, then more than one limiter (soft limiters) at lesser settings and you'll be amazed at how much volume you can squeeze out of a track. It's not always nice...but it's not always bad either - it really does depend on the style of music and the audience that listens to it.
如过你认真的去做响度的话（很多专业认识在做MASTER的时候都这样做）。如果你是以VOLUME（音量）为首要目的的，那么你就要运用多个（或者连续）的comperssors/limiters了。如果你只运用一个重压缩，然后后面加一个重LIMITER，你可能可以提高一点；但用两个或者甚至三个compressors（一个接一个，有顺序的），然后运用比较轻的设置（压缩设置），后面跟着一个以上limiter,同样运用轻度的设置（软一点的LIMITER),出来的效果会让你大为惊奇。但这个不是很好的方法，当然也不是很差的方法。但是这是看音乐的风格，和听众的感觉了。
I don't make my music particularly loud - but I don't make it particularly dynamic either. I'm not in the "everything's too loud" camp (which is often coming from the very same people who actually produce the loud stuff!). It can work well with some styles. It can ruin others. And the kids don't really give a toss, so we are not the ones to judge
我不会使我的音乐特别LOUD。但我也不会让他过于dynamic（动态，响度和动态就是鱼与熊掌，不能兼得）。我不会用压缩把"所有东西都变得很大声”（很多人确实用作出十分大声的东西）。响度能让某些风格音乐变好，同样也能破坏其他风格的音乐，但不同环境需要有不同需要，所以我们不能以此作判断。
I was initially being facetious about the white spaces in the editor - but if you use several comps/limiters, you can achieve what you want without necessarily destroying your music. e.g if you're producing 4/4 bum-tch-bum-tch tarnce or something similar, or even hardcore industrial stuff - or some forms of modern R'n'B - there may not be that many dynamics to start with - and you may not want them. You have to be the judge.
我最初是不分情况的在软件的里面处理空白地方（响度），如果你用多个压缩/亚限，有能实现响度提高，相对也会在你的音乐重出现失真。如果你制作 4/4 bum-tch-bum-tch tarnce （一个音乐类型，但是我不知道如何翻译）或者相似风格的音乐，或者 hardcore 弄出来的东西，或者一些现代R'n'B，there may not be that many dynamics to start with - and you may not want them. You have to be the judge. （这个太口语化了，我知道大概意思是：这些类型不一定需要很多的动态，你可以在这些风格的音乐上不用太多的动态，你以此作为判断）。
Simply be aware that things like drumming often derive their feel or swing from subtleties in volume of different hits. Same with real instrument riffs. And limiting is a form of waveshaping, which is basically distortion. Hard limiting does introduce distortion. You may like it or you may hate it.
Hard limiting does introduce distortion. You may like it or you may hate it. 这句话你可以了解到LIMIT真是让你爱恨交加啊！
But yeah...you almost won't hear anything on the radio that hasn't been heavily limited (although the source music may not be like that on the CD). And most broadcasters will use multiband limiters. You're likely to get less distortion and more perceived volume from a multiband than a wideband limiter - although multibands can also have obviously heard drawbacks, such as overall balance of frequencies and others.
这里是说多段LIMIT和单段LIMIT的差别，在广播中多段LIMIT比较多的被运用到，而且失真比较少，当然多段压缩也有缺点（多段压缩不一定比单段压缩好，C4不一定比C1好！！！）
It's pretty difficult to get an RMS of over -12 without adversely affecting any mix though. At least without using very good compressors and limiters and knowing how to use them well (if that's the correct word ).
Aim for -14 RMS and you'll probably compete with most of the modern crap that's out there.
让RMS超过－12dB而在任何的MIX中不出现相反的效果（我怀疑他是不是把EFFICTING写成AFFICTING，意思不同啊）是一件相当困难的事情。最起码在没有好的压缩好的limit已经不知道如何用好他们的情况下，无法做到。（if that's the correct word ，不会直接翻译，意思是如果我用于正确地话）
having said that - nowadays limiters seem to be more in vogue. And all we hear about is how bad it is. What some of those exponents of the grumpy old men brigade (which often includes me on other topics though ) is that alot of older music was extremely heavily compressed rather than limited. More so than some music today. It's horses for courses.
[ 本帖最后由 himhui 于 2006-5-3 23:23 编辑 ]
The main reason is that the "pro" songs are compressed & limited to smithereens, and objectively they are too loud!
There are good plugins to measure how loud your mix is. You can put Inspector on the master bus and have a look at your mix. If the RMS level is above -20dB then your mix actually is not that soft. -17dB average is pretty good, -14 or -10 is freaking loud and does not allow for much peak dynamics.
Tweaking with the compressor on the tracks that have much dynamics (drums, vocals) could give you a louder overall result. If you want to...
你可以用Inspector插入到你的 master bus 里面,用它来“监视”你的MIX；如果 RMS 是 低于 －20dB，那么你的Mix确实很不舒服。平均－17dB就已经相当不错了。
－14或者－10dB已经比较大声了，已经没什么峰值动态空间了。
通过调整compressor能提高响度，减少dynamics。If you want to...后面可能想说：但不推荐。
kritikon
If you want loud...what you need to do to match some recent music is to zoom in on your audio mixdown in the editor - if you see any white spaces in there...turn the limiter up (threshold down).
如果你需要响度，那么你就在MIX的时候通过软件放大波形，如果你看到有空白地方的话，那么你就扭动limiter吧（降低THR);
Which you seriously can do (many pros do in fact make masters that are like that). And if you seriously want to get volume as a prime objective, then use serial compressors/limiters. If you use just one compressor heavily, followed by one limiter heavily - you'll probably get a bit of mush. But use two or even three compressors one after the other at lesser settings, then more than one limiter (soft limiters) at lesser settings and you'll be amazed at how much volume you can squeeze out of a track. It's not always nice...but it's not always bad either - it really does depend on the style of music and the audience that listens to it.
如过你认真的去做响度的话（很多专业认识在做MASTER的时候都这样做）。如果你是以VOLUME（音量）为首要目的的，那么你就要运用多个（或者连续）的comperssors/limiters了。如果你只运用一个重压缩，然后后面加一个重LIMITER，你可能可以提高一点；但用两个或者甚至三个compressors（一个接一个，有顺序的），然后运用比较轻的设置（压缩设置），后面跟着一个以上limiter,同样运用轻度的设置（软一点的LIMITER),出来的效果会让你大为惊奇。但这个不是很好的方法，当然也不是很差的方法。但是这是看音乐的风格，和听众的感觉了。
I don't make my music particularly loud - but I don't make it particularly dynamic either. I'm not in the "everything's too loud" camp (which is often coming from the very same people who actually produce the loud stuff!). It can work well with some styles. It can ruin others. And the kids don't really give a toss, so we are not the ones to judge
我不会使我的音乐特别LOUD。但我也不会让他过于dynamic（动态，响度和动态就是鱼与熊掌，不能兼得）。我不会用压缩把"所有东西都变得很大声”（很多人确实用作出十分大声的东西）。响度能让某些风格音乐变好，同样也能破坏其他风格的音乐，但不同环境需要有不同需要，所以我们不能以此作判断。
I was initially being facetious about the white spaces in the editor - but if you use several comps/limiters, you can achieve what you want without necessarily destroying your music. e.g if you're producing 4/4 bum-tch-bum-tch tarnce or something similar, or even hardcore industrial stuff - or some forms of modern R'n'B - there may not be that many dynamics to start with - and you may not want them. You have to be the judge.
我最初是不分情况的在软件的里面处理空白地方（响度），如果你用多个压缩/亚限，有能实现响度提高，相对也会在你的音乐重出现失真。如果你制作 4/4 bum-tch-bum-tch tarnce （一个音乐类型，但是我不知道如何翻译）或者相似风格的音乐，或者 hardcore 弄出来的东西，或者一些现代R'n'B，there may not be that many dynamics to start with - and you may not want them. You have to be the judge. （这个太口语化了，我知道大概意思是：这些类型不一定需要很多的动态，你可以在这些风格的音乐上不用太多的动态，你以此作为判断）。
Simply be aware that things like drumming often derive their feel or swing from subtleties in volume of different hits. Same with real instrument riffs. And limiting is a form of waveshaping, which is basically distortion. Hard limiting does introduce distortion. You may like it or you may hate it.
Hard limiting does introduce distortion. You may like it or you may hate it. 这句话你可以了解到LIMIT真是让你爱恨交加啊！
But yeah...you almost won't hear anything on the radio that hasn't been heavily limited (although the source music may not be like that on the CD). And most broadcasters will use multiband limiters. You're likely to get less distortion and more perceived volume from a multiband than a wideband limiter - although multibands can also have obviously heard drawbacks, such as overall balance of frequencies and others.
这里是说多段LIMIT和单段LIMIT的差别，在广播中多段LIMIT比较多的被运用到，而且失真比较少，当然多段压缩也有缺点（多段压缩不一定比单段压缩好，C4不一定比C1好！！！）
It's pretty difficult to get an RMS of over -12 without adversely affecting any mix though. At least without using very good compressors and limiters and knowing how to use them well (if that's the correct word ).
Aim for -14 RMS and you'll probably compete with most of the modern crap that's out there.
让RMS超过－12dB而在任何的MIX中不出现相反的效果（我怀疑他是不是把EFFICTING写成AFFICTING，意思不同啊）是一件相当困难的事情。最起码在没有好的压缩好的limit已经不知道如何用好他们的情况下，无法做到。（if that's the correct word ，不会直接翻译，意思是如果我用于正确地话）
having said that - nowadays limiters seem to be more in vogue. And all we hear about is how bad it is. What some of those exponents of the grumpy old men brigade (which often includes me on other topics though ) is that alot of older music was extremely heavily compressed rather than limited. More so than some music today. It's horses for courses.
[ 本帖最后由 himhui 于 2006-5-3 23:23 编辑 ]
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原帖由 Ying 于 2006-5-4 00:09 发表
我不是一个追求响度的人~~~但是一个歌曲也不能没有响度~~所以我自己是以动态为住~~(我自己受不了蝎子乐队一类的BAND).
我最喜欢U2,老鹰,查尔斯这些歌手(乐队),本身的响度不大~~
但是我想问:除了文中说的 多 ...
压缩是主要的工具!
但是,在压缩前,要为压缩"铺路"!
这个铺路的过程非常重要!说起来比较的烦琐,比如,你用的什么音源,音质如何,混缩他们的时候,有没有留有合理的headroom?有没有,切?这个切,我个人认为对响度来说,比较的重要!它是决定了你能留出多大的动态余量,为后期做充分的准备!若你不是为响度或动态而来,那就没有必要都切!因为会破坏原有乐器的质感!等等.....................................
总结一下:
除了利用压缩和limit,我们应该多注重混缩的时候,每一轨的细节,动态是一点点,挪出来的!就象是搬家,少一个家具,就多一点空间!当我们把细节做好,那么动态将不是问题了!如果你有一个强劲的硬件压缩器的话,那么事半功倍了!当然,还是要注意细节....................!
上面是我个人体会,不代表真理!请大家讨论!谢谢!呵呵
